The Tribune interviews David Stokes, author of Apparent Danger, a new book detailing a significant event in the life of J. Frank Norris
Tribune – First of all, I think I have to ask who was the man you are writing about?
DRS – J. Frank Norris (1877- 1952) was a preacher, broadcaster, newspaper publisher, and pastor of the first megachurch in America — First Baptist in Fort Worth, Texas (1909- 1952). He also simultaneously pastored Temple Baptist in Detroit (1934-1950). He was one of the “fathers” of fundamentalism, as well as the independent Baptist movement. In fact, you could pretty much call him the “grandfather” of the BBF, due to his influence in the lives of BBF founders. If you wanted to “build” a J. Frank Norris you’d need some Billy Sunday, along with a measure of P. T. Barnum, and a dash of William Randolph Hearst.
Tribune – You have written articles and composed lectures about Norris, and now this book. Is there a personal connection?
DRS – I grew up around the old Temple Baptist Church in Detroit. My grandparents and mother were converted under Norris when the church was located at 14th and Marquette. I have never forgotten hearing stories about the man and his ministry.
Tribune – Norris’s influence was felt across the landscape — in politics, in society as a whole, as well as in the religious world. You have chosen a relatively thin slice of his life to write about. Tell us briefly about this episode and why it fascinates you.
DRS – The shooting of D.E. Chipps by Norris in July of 1926 is — more than any other event in the colorful preacher’s life — a window into his mind and ministry at the peak of his career. It was also a big story back then. Can you imagine how cable news would deal with a megachurch pastor shooting a man in this day and age? Norris at that moment was striving to receive the mantle of William Jennings Bryan, who had died a year before. It’s a story with drama, good guys, bad guys, and all shades in between.
Tribune – What gave Norris his knack for using media to his advantage?
DRS – He was a student of people — in fact, “populism” is probably the best description of his overall approach to ministry. Accordingly, he was always on the lookout for the latest medium or gadget. If he were alive today and in his 30s, he’d be on the internet, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, and such.
Tribune – I was always fascinated by the relationship Norris had with the two Dallas pastors, George Truett and later W. A. Criswell. Criswell said in his autobiography that his mother adored Truett, but his father was a big fan of Norris. Can you comment on Norris and his relationships with other highly visible preachers?
DRS – J. Frank Norris was described by one biographer as the most successful “lone wolf” in Baptist history. His ego and propensity toward conflict ensured that he would never have a lot of close preacher friends. He went through people like a hot knife through butter. He couldn’t stand Truett; likely and largely because the famous Dallas pastor was so often dismissive of him. And reading his paper at the time — the Searchlight — you see names come and go. He had a quick mind and very strong personality — not necessarily traits that lead to familiarity or intimacy.
Tribune – In some ways, Norris was a man of his times, but surely he had a couple of things going a pastor could emulate today. What do you think?
DRS – Well, I think you said it right there. He was a man of his times. And if he were here today, he’d be a man of these times. Aside from that, though, I think there are a couple of things he did that would benefit any clergyman today.
He was a voracious reader — and not just the Bible and theology. A self-styled “expert” in international affairs, he read every major periodical of the day on everything from foreign affairs to American politics. He was comfortable, therefore, commenting or opining on just about anything.
He was also unpredictable — refusing to fit into anyone’s mold or stereotype. I saw in the Searchlight a kind and generous eulogy to Robert LaFollette after his passing in 1925 — though the senator from Wisconsin had pretty much been a leftist. Norris, on the other hand, was part of the religious right decades before the phrase was articulated. Bryan, one of Norris’s heroes, was himself a “progressive” — someone we would consider today a political liberal, even with his fundamentalist view of scripture. Norris was fond of saying: “Consistency is the virtue of fools.” Interestingly, there was a picture of Bryan (a famous pacifist) over Norris’s desk the day he shot Chipps.
Tribune – Thank you, David, for taking time for this interview.
Apparent Danger: The Pastor of America’s First Megachurch and the Texas Murder Trial of the Decade in the 1920s will be available in bookstores everywhere in June, as well as on the web at Amazon.com and Barnes and Noble. Now though, there is a limited release via the publisher and via www.apparentdanger.com.